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Talk:Gohan
i love gohan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!he is j.u.s.t so good!!!!!!!!.smh 17:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC) Whoever's saying that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku... Stop making edits about Ultimate Gohan being stronger than SSJ3 Goku; we can't be so sure. Gotenks, yes, but not Goku. Hyper Zergling 22:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC) Yes. I agree with you regarding this matter. Goku isn't surpassed by all characters. Dekoshu talk 22:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC) ThanksHyper Zergling 04:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC) :Gohan was indeed stronger than SS3 Goku. Though this was somewhat obscured in the English anime, the original wording in the manga makes it pretty plain. AurochSpirit assembled a fairly concise compilation of the relevant information on YT a while back. (Make sure and read the manga scans in the video description, as they're even more telling than the video.) -- 09:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC) Oh my god. How many times do we have to go over this? We don't have any proof, and in the manga, none of it is stated. As a matter of fact, the manga leans more towards SSJ3 Goku being stronger. Hyper Zergling 00:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC) :What do you mean "how many times"? This is the first time this material has been brought forth. And if you'll review it, I think you'll agree that it's rather compelling. (Especially if you read the manga scans in the video description.) If you have some material from the manga that contradicts this, by all means note it here. -- 12:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC) First off, I didn't even edit it stating that SSJ3 Goku is stronger. Second, no one has absolute proof that Ultimate Gohan is stronger, unless it was quoted by Akira Toriyama himself. And I gave an example a while ago, and this is like the fifth time saying this: When Goku went SSJ3, Gohan felt his power from the Kai planet. When Gohan unleashed his energy on the Kai planet, no one on Earth felt his energy until he came back. Hyper Zergling 03:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC) It's very hard to determine the facts between Super Saiyan 3 Goku being weaker or stronger than Ultimate Gohan.Dekoshu talk 03:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC) Also, it may or may not be concise that Goku is easily surpassed by Ultimate Gohan. If he is truly stronger than SS3 Goku, then why can't be able to defeat Kid Buu or Super Buu completely? Dekoshu talk 03:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC) :Nothing can usually be supported by a quote from Toriyama himself. What I mean is that the facts of the series haven't been established because someone has interviewed Toriyama and personally asked him to confirm certain things. The facts have been established by the story Toriyama wrote, and alternatively Toei's anime adaptation. The manga really does seem to imply that (Ultimate) Gohan can defeat Buu without the need to fuse with Goku. Even in the anime Goku acknowledges that he and Vegeta are no match for a weakened form of the same Buu that Gohan toyed with in battle. It's all in the link Nonoitall provided... I'll agree it doesn't make anything 100% but at the same time it doesn't mean you should completely debunk the possibility when there are several implications that suggest Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Goku at Super Saiyan 3. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 04:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC) That is pretty understandable, Vixen. Not everyone always disagree though. Dekoshu talk 04:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC) I apologize if the statement was rather presumptous and patronizing, but Gohan is a Half-Saiyan, and in his "Ultimate form", he may have great power, but he was killed by Kid Buu. It's such a shame, but Goku did destroy Kid Buu with the Spirit Bomb, but the topic is that is SS3 Goku weaker or stronger than Gohan? Why and how? Dekoshu talk 04:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC) :Note: Below comment tweaked twice by Vixen Windstorm for accuracy (see bracketed italic text). :@Hyper Zergling: Like Storm said, there's very little on this wiki that can be supported directly by a Toriyama quote. If you want to adjust the wording so that it's more clear just how the assertion is derived, I have no objections. Admittedly, it's never directly stated that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SS3 Goku. AFAIK it was never directly stated that SS3 Goku was stronger than Gohan either, but given the evidence in the series, it seems like a reasonable conclusion. And if you'll read the material that I linked, you'll find that your claim about no one feeling Gohan's energy from Earth is incorrect. (See question #11 in the video description.) :@Dekoshu: (1) Why didn't Gohan destroy Super Buu completely? Because he never finished fighting him. Super Buu saw that he was outmatched and self-destructed. Gohan fled the scene with Goten and Trunks, and by the time the dust settled, Buu was nowhere to be found. When they discovered him again, Gohan was about to resume fighting him, but Buu tricked them into letting Goten and Trunks fuse again. Buu then absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo, making him stronger than Ultimate Gohan or SS3 Goku. (2) Why didn't Gohan destroy Kid Buu completely? He never fought him. (3) Why was Kid Buu able to kill Gohan, while being beaten by Goku? Gohan was unconscious and Kid Buu destroyed the planet he was on. -- 11:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC) I appreciate your explanation, Nonoitall, but I'm not a newb. I know already what exactly happened with Gohan and the others before. But an explanation isn't so bad, so thank you. Dekoshu talk 17:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC) Alright, nonoitall. If Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Akira Toriyama would've had him fight Kid Buu in the end. But then you would counteract with, "What about Vegito?" The Potara earrings were supposed to create permanent fusions. Toriyama obviously needed an excuse to split him. Hyper Zergling 02:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC) umm im going to agree with hyperzergling on this one.Both me and my brother have been watching the series ever since it aired on cartoonnetwork. There is no proof that ultimate gohan is stronger then SSJ3 goku,but i personaly think that goku is strongerLink67125 02:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)link67125 :Hyper Zergling: I counteract with this: Why question Toriyama when he wrote the series the way he did? The series is his creation and thus he could decide who the combatants of battles come down to. He didn't have to brand the final battle with taking place between Kid Buu and Ultimate Gohan simply because (let's just say for this example) Gohan was stronger than Goku. Don't forget that there was a time when the series was ongoing, and ongoing series aren't usually done for the sake of what fanbases will say in retrospect, but to keep the interest and appeal of current readers and viewers. There were no wikis and massive databases 20 years ago for the series, and when it was in its original production run, many of us were either playing with plastic blocks, still in diapers or not even born, so by the time we were finally exposed to the series, the (primitive, except to current young fans) internet was able to help shape our conceptions of the series. The point is that this isn't something Japan had during the series' original run, so all they had to support their ideas of the series were the implications made in the manga and anime. Well the same rules apply here; if it isn't outright stated but is at least outright implied, then it doesn't matter if the plot came to pass that Gohan was killed while incapacitated, it is still alluded to that in his prime Gohan could outclass Buu. :Link67125: The series existed before Cartoon Network began airing the dub, but ironically even in the dub Goku still implies he's no match for Super Buu. The manga (basically the highest level of canon) makes the implication as well, but the fact that even the anime dub supports it only solidifies the theory. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 05:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC) Goku never said he was no match for Super Buu (without anyone absorbed). And kid Buu is stronger than super Buu (without anyone absorbed). How? Because Fat Buu's "kindness" stopped super Buu from using his full power, and kid Buu had no inhibition. Yes, super Buu was potentially stronger, but fat Buu held him back. And all the major enemies were killed by the strongest hero at the time, excluding fusions. Hyper Zergling 17:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC) is he????please give me comments!smh 17:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC) :All I'm saying is that what's directly implied in the highest level of canon, and supported by the anime adaptation, outweighs any amount of original research made by a fan, unless there's reasonable doubt that can be assumed because of retroactive continuity (retcon) or a blatant inconsistency. Of course, it's difficult to verify something that is only implied, but Goku makes it pretty clear that he and Gohan don't need to fuse since Gohan has the power to defeat Buu alone, and while inside a form of Super Buu weaker than the one Gohan battles, Goku makes it pretty clear that taking on Buu in current circumstances would mean death for both he and Vegeta. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 18:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC) Goku was willing to fight Super buu, after goten and trunk's fusion ended and he became "mostly piccolo" Vegeta wasn't even there at the time when Gohan fought Super Buu, unless of course you're talking about after he absorbed Gohan. Super Buu with Gohan absorbed was stronger than all of them, nonetheless, so it wouldn't have made a difference. If SSJ3 Goku faced Super Buu (without anyone absorbed), the result would be the same as when Ultimate Gohan fought him. Super Buu is only barely stronger than fat Buu (when he was first resurrected). And SSJ3 Goku fought pretty evenly with kid Buu, who was stronger than Super Buu. I even made a poll asking who is stronger: http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=35197 Hyper Zergling 20:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC) I already knew that dbz was aired in japan before th dub was aired on cartoon network. Nevertheless i don't care if i win this arguement or not im just trying to state my opinion and i was also trying to get everyone to stop argueing.Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this matter, but you should not put uncomfirmed info in the article, it is perfectly fine if you say that its an opinion when you say that you think gohan is strongerLink67125 02:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC) :I'm not saying I have any opinion on the matter. In any case, I use evidence supplied by the mangaka to form my opinions, rather than rely on unverifiable fan interpretation (even my own potential interpretations). I'm saying that using the information given in source material, it's hinted that Gohan is stronger than Goku at this point in the series. Does this mean I personally think Gohan is stronger? No, because it was Goku's extent that was ultimately depicted rather than Gohan's (leaving Gohan's extent ambiguous), but what I do know is that for some reason people choose to reject, Toriyama deliberately conveyed through Goku that Gohan was superior to him. As for unconfirmed information in the article, there is a mention of Gohan being stronger than Goku, but it's accompanied by a note saying that this is something that was only implied. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 02:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC) ok, i didn't exactly mean opinion but if you think its impied thats ok with me, its just that i want to end this arguement and i would like to think that everyone would argee with me about ending this arguement now. The sooner this ends the sooner we can all go back to not having to argue over something this insignifigant. I would like to thank you for listening to my opinions and employing reason with me even though i am quite new to dbzwiki.Link67125 02:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC) :No problem, everybody's opinions are welcome. I think it might be best to end this debate as well, as it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The article now points out the facts surrounding the possibility of Gohan > Goku, without forcing the reader to take it as fact. Because it can't be verified, the mention of its implication is basically the most that can be done to enlighten the reader anyways, and this discussion has really just been repeating itself for almost two days. Nonetheless if anyone ever has new updates about this subject, feel free to present them here. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 02:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC) Iwould like to thankyou again for listening to me and hyperzergling and for agreeing to end this point less debateLink67125 02:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC) What happens if the opinion happens to be unacceptable? Dekoshu talk 02:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC) :@Hyper Zergling: (I'm not sure if you're listening in anymore, but I just wanted to cover some of your assertions just in case. It looks like the discussion has kind of quieted down with the new wording anyway, so this is mainly just a reference for anyone else who's curious.) ::Quote: Goku never said he was no match for Super Buu (without anyone absorbed). ::Quote: If SSJ3 Goku faced Super Buu (without anyone absorbed), the result would be the same as when Ultimate Gohan fought him. :While inside Buu, Goku said that if he and Vegeta fought Super Buu (with no one absorbed) that Buu would kill them. (This was stated in both the anime and the manga.) Bare in mind that Goku's fight with Super Buu+Gotenks+Piccolo was filler in the anime and does not appear in the original manga. ::Quote: And kid Buu is stronger than super Buu (without anyone absorbed). :This is another source of confusion that is somewhat exacerbated by the wording in the English anime. On this subject, there's another YT compilation that discusses the whole Kid Buu issue, but that's for another conversation. Even so, you're right in that Kid Buu is the most volatile form, and as such, the most dangerous. ::Quote: Goku was willing to fight Super buu, after goten and trunk's fusion ended and he became "mostly piccolo" :In the anime, that's implied. ("You don't expect to fight me like that?") However, in the original manga, Goku says "Gohan can handle you now" again implying that Gohan is stronger than Goku. :@Storm: Thanks for filling in the gaps in my post - not sure why I was having such a hard time typing correctly the other night. :-P -- 03:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC) But there's a problem: Goku never went Super Saiyan Three, so obviously he wouldn't be able to defeat Super Buu. And Goku said that Gohan could handle him, because it was Gohan's fight, and his ultimate form couldn't be wasted. But of course, no one ever pays any attention to what the other person is trying to say. Hyper Zergling 06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC) :What reason would Goku have to go SS3 unless he actually intended to engage Buu? There's no indication that Goku wasn't accounting for his SS3 transformation when he said that he and Vegeta would be killed by Super Buu. If Goku were stronger than Gohan, then what you mentioned could have been his rationale for saying Gohan could handle Buu, but the rest of the series implies the opposite. -- 09:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC) Why would he have even gone Super Saiyan in the first place, if he wasn't intending on fighting Buu? Hyper Zergling 06:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC) :None. That's probably why he wasn't a Super Saiyan when he made that statement. -- 08:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC) But Vegeta wasn't there at the time... Besides, consider this: http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.16258/page.3/ Piccolo didn't say anything about Buu getting any stronger, or at most a little stronger. He only said that he was more evil. Hyper Zergling 19:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC) :If you want to cite something with an link to a page of the manga, the most credible way to do so is with a link to a page of the official manga, and not a scanlation translated by who knows. Sometimes verbatim is the only way to confirm certain things, and comparing what chapters I own with these scanlations, these guys only capture verbatim maybe half the time. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 20:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC) So that makes your version more accurate? It was still scantalated, nonetheless. Unless you expect me to read Japanese. Hyper Zergling 23:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC) :That's a little much. What I expect in the least is that if you try to prove something, use the official source material to prove it. I wouldn't use Dragon Ball Z Abridged to corroborate what happens in the anime. That example may be a little extreme since DBZA exists for the purpose of parody, but the idea remains that the only credible sources to draw conclusions from are Toei's anime and Viz's manga. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 00:05, 13 February 2009 (UTC) Everything I said before pretty much says it all. It's just that none of us care about what the other is trying to say. And why are you even dragging the Abridged series into this? :Hyper Zergling, we're listening to what you have to say, but none of it seems to overcome the evidence in the series that implies Gohan was the stronger fighter. If you'll watch that clip and read the included manga scans, I think you'll agree that the evidence is pretty compelling. I'll admit I'm having a difficult time believing that you did look over the material, as you claim that Vegeta wasn't there when Goku made that statement, but he can be seen quite plainly as the person Goku was talking to... :In both the anime and manga, Gohan was clearly stronger than Super Buu, and Goku was utterly convinced that both he and Vegeta would be no match for that same form of Buu. As stated in the article, this strongly implies that Gohan was stronger than Goku. Is there anything in the series that so concisely counters this or can we call the matter closed? -- 09:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC) But you're not reading what I'm saying. It's the way humans are in an argument. Otherwise, it would make sense to you. What I said probably makes more sense than what you said. OF course I read the manga, although I never watched the anime. If you're referring to when Vegeta just came, then of course they would lose. Super Buu absorbed Gohan, and that is even stronger than Ultimate Gohan. If you were referring to when they were inside Buu, then you pointed something wrong; Goku did go SSJ2. Use your head, dammit. Hyper Zergling 15:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC) :There's no need to get testy. I was referring to the point when Goku and Vegeta were inside of Buu (after severing him from his captured Z Fighters). Goku is thoroughly convinced that without fusion, he and Vegeta are still no match for this form of Buu, (which Gohan completely dominated several episodes/chapters before). And Goku was in his base form at the time. This happened in both the anime and the manga. I've read everything you've written, but I'm a bit slow. Perhaps you could reiterate for me where this reasoning is flawed? -- 12:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Yes, Goku was normal when he made that statement, but then he went SSJ2 along with Vegeta when Super Buu popped out. Besides, SSJ3 has a time limit, and obviously wouldn't be enough to eliminate Super Buu (time wise). Hyper Zergling 05:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC) :So it sounds as if we are in agreement that Goku was no match for Super Buu, who Gohan toyed with. -- 10:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC) Of course not. SSJ3 Goku could've done the same. Super Buu wasn't that much stronger than fat Buu in the beginning. If you scroll up, I gave the URL to the page where Piccolo states that Super Buu is only more evil. Besides, SSJ3 has a time limit, so of course Goku wouldn't go SSJ3. Hyper Zergling 13:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC) :Your own link will tell you that he was more evil, and his body's become better for fighting too. Piccolo also noted a change in Majin Buu's ki, though he didn't specify whether it was small as you claim, or significant. Even if Goku could have defeated the fat Majin Buu (he was still uncertain of this), who are we to say whether Super Buu's strength had surpassed Goku's or not? Goku himself stated that he (along with Vegeta, no less) would be killed if he fought Super Buu. So, we have your speculation that Super Buu was weaker than Goku, verses Goku's own statement in both the anime and manga that he, (along with Vegeta, no less), was no match for Super Buu. Which one carries more weight? -- 10:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC) But of course, there's always the powering up. Scroll up to see what I mean, or just figure it out. It's the same statement I've been saying all the time. Hyper Zergling 05:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC) :If you're referring to Goku's powering up to SS3 being felt in Other World, that was also explained on the link I provided. Gohan's increase in power in Other World was also felt on Earth by Super Buu. -- 07:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC) No it wasn't. Not until Gohan was teleported to Earth. Hyper Zergling 16:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC) :Please review the material I linked to previously. ::''Super Buu (to Gohan): "I thought so. It was you." ... "Far away, very far away, I felt a strong power grow."'' :-- 08:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Why didn't Gotenks or Piccolo ffel it? Besides, it didn't occur to Buu as that important until he actually got beaten up. Gohan was freaking out when Goku went SSJ3. Hyper Zergling 17:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC) :A villain being arrogant about his ability to deal with a stronger opponent is nothing new. (As I recall, Fat Buu wasn't exactly shaking in his boots when he was first confronted with SS3 Goku, either.) What does Piccolo and Gotenks' awareness of Gohan have to do with anything? It's not as though they were in Other World when Goku went SS3 and sensed that, so there doesn't seem to be any comparison we can draw. -- 12:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC) Exactly my point of why we shouldn't post "the original manga implied." We don't know who's stronger. Hyper Zergling 13:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC) :What? I was saying that there is no comparison to be drawn from Piccolo and Gotenks' inability to detect Gohan's energy from Other World. That doesn't nullify all the other evidence that points to Gohan as the stronger fighter... -- 13:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC) Did you even see the poll I made?http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=35197 And besides, Akira Toriyama would have had Goahn fight Kid Buu in the end rather than Goku. Hyper Zergling 02:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC) :Polls mean absolutely nothing, this is an encyclopedia, not a fansite where votes masquerade as facts. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Feb 25, 2009 @ 03:05 (UTC) But aren't the rest of them doing the same? Except they're only not using other "fan-based" sources, but their own knowledge. It's still fan-based material. Hyper Zergling 04:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC) :''Knowledge: Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.'' :''Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.'' :They are not the same. :Here is my logic: :#If A > B and B > C, then we can conclude that A > C. :#Goku stated that he (even when fighting alongside Vegeta) would be no match for Super Buu. This establishes with reasonable certainty that Super Buu > SS3 Goku (and even SS3 Goku + SS2 Vegeta). :#Gohan dominated Super Buu, who was finally forced to self-destruct, hide, and absorb Gotenks and Piccolo in order to beat him. This establishes with reasonable certainty that Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu. :Together, these premises establish with reasonable certainty that Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu and Super Buu > SS3 Goku, and by extension, Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Goku. If any part of my logic is faulty, by all means say so. Otherwise, I think we're finished here. -- 07:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC) Yet, there's no stating of who's actually stronger. And Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, although that really has nothing to do with what were saying; he was playing with Goku. Hyper Zergling 13:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)